Sage 100 Standard vs. Advanced Information

We are looking at upgrading from 100 Standard to Advanced.  So far I cannot find much information on what benefits there are other than that everything should run faster.  Does anyone have any ROI data on standard vs advanced?  Any personal accounts of the impact of moving up?  

Right now I'm basically asking management for $40k because "It's faster".  That's not really much of a leg to stand on.  Any input on the two would be greatly appreciated.

  • 0

    Wow.  $40K to upgrade?   How many users do you have?

    If you don't have any of these situations, my general opinion is don't consider advanced.   Others may have different reasons to justify it, but these are mine.

    1.  You have 20+ users  (faster).

    2.  You need to access from remote locations over lower speed connections such as over the internet, etc.(faster)..

    3.  Your network connection may not be as stable as you like (less likely to corrupt a file if your connection temporarily drops out - will be more stable).

    4.  Installation of product updates are easier in 2013 (5.0) and above are easier in advanced because the workstation updates for the product updates are installed automatically the next time a user logs in (easier maintenance).

    Other than this the feature sets are essentially the same.

    Anyone have anything else to add to this?

  • 0 in reply to TomTarget

    The upgrade fee is ~$35K along with an additional 5 users.  Plus $5k/year to our yearly maintenance bringing that to nearly $10k.  So for this upgrade, $40k.

    1. We have 21 users (the free one that came with 4.5+)  Included in the upgrade is 5 users to bring us to 26.  I wouldn't be surprised if we need another 5 within a year or two.

    2. We do have 2 remote users, but they just have remote desktop sessions they can use, though native via VPN would be far preferable.

    3. We've only had a problem with this once, early in our "Mas90" days and a lightning storm took out our system while someone was doing daily processing.  But to have a more stable connection is definitely a plus in my opinion. We have since put everyone that processes any daily activities on UPS.

    EDIT:  

    I just dug up the quote to verify my numbers It's more like $37k all said and done.

  • 0 in reply to dlevasseur

    Is that for just a change between standard and advanced?   No version upgrade?  No new hardware?

    Pricing aside,  you are definitely moving into advanced territory.

  • 0 in reply to TomTarget

    Correct.  License $17500 + 5 Users $7700 + Prorated Maintenance $3600 + our next maintenance cycle $9500.

    Then some upgrade labor from our reseller.

    One thing I haven't been able to figure out is that Prorated Maintenance seems to be going up as we get closer to our maintenance cycle in May.  Almost as if they are prorating backwards for the year instead of forward to our next cycle.  If this is the case, I could wait a month and save nearly $4k.

    I think we should have started with what was 200 at the time, but just didn't know any better.  We started at 10 users and quickly went to 15.  Sage didn't really want to sell me the next 5 up to 20 users because I wasn't on Advanced.  Now just for the sake of performance, I think we need to move up.

    I think I figured it out once as being about 50 cents per user per working hour for the first year.  Will we gain that 50 cents/user/hour back in improved speed and efficiency? Maybe.  Will the improved speed and efficiency account for the yearly salary of roughly one employee?  Maybe.  It is just difficult to request budget based on speed alone.

  • 0

    Dan, the difference is that Standard AKA MAS90 is a file server application. The data files come over the network and are processed on the work station and then sent back. For this reason the vast majority of data corruption cases I used to work on when I was a consultant happened on MAS90 installs. Advanced AKA MAS200 is the client server version. In this case all processing is done on the server. I always suggest that if it is more than just you sitting in a closet doing all the work on a stand alone to go with the client server version. Less data corruption and faster, lots  faster processing are the main benefits.  Note that there is NO difference in the data files, just the program files.

    If you have 26 users you definately need to go to the client server version. Run it as an Application rather than a service.

  • 0 in reply to BigLouie

    Thanks BL.  I understand the difference in versions.  I'm just trying to get a handle on how much of a difference it really is.  If I'm seeing 5-7 second window loads, is that going to be 1-2 in Advanced?  

    I know Sage doesn't want to put numbers up on it due to varying server specs and networks, but it would be nice to have some rational data on performance gain when moving up.

  • 0 in reply to dlevasseur

    OK,  pricing makes more sense now.   However, your next year's maintenance really isn't part of the upgrade,  it's something you would have paid anyway (other than the incremental difference).  Was initially worried that you were getting gouged on the labor,  but I think it's in the ball park now.

    Not so sure you will see a huge difference in the window load time (although you might).  Your speed will tend to be more in processing time (updating, printing, etc.).   The other advantage is that you have less network traffic,  so if you have other applications that are also competing for bandwidth you should see an improvement there as well.

  • 0 in reply to TomTarget

    Without window load time increases, then it isn't worth the upgrade at all.  Processing is already pretty fast, I don't imagine it could get much faster.

    That's really sad to hear.

  • 0 in reply to dlevasseur

    With 30+ users you have to have a very clean network, strong workstations and carefully configured Antivirus. You should have a completely dedicated server and a diligent IT staff with regular maintenance routines for the file server.

    Even with all of that in place there is always the possibility network instability because of a bad cable a chatty NIC or collisions because of inattention to a new NIC or switch setting, etc..

    With that much user overhead you may begin to run into circumstances where a network delay or collision will confuse the Windows opportunistic locking feature. Depending on the file that gets locked you could see delays or hanging when updating or saving but the most frequent and catastrophic issue is cascade or domino locking.

    Cascade locking is usually due to the session file SY_WORKSTATION being the file that gets locked. If Windows fails to release a lock on SY_WORKSTATION no one else in the system can access it.

    A write to SY_WORKSTATION happens when you open the program or change tasks in the program so if it is locked by Windows people who are in the system can typically continue to work until they need to change tasks then their business desktop will lock up. Anyone trying to enter the system will also lock. Until one by one everyone is locked up.

    These cascade lockups can be extremely disruptive to a company’s business day. By their very nature they happen when the network is at its highest activity and if they occur at the right time, like during an update they can even cause corruption in the Sage 100 Standard data files.

    Again, this type of locking behavior on a Sage 100 Standard system is almost always a result of a network interruption that prevents Windows from releasing an oplock. And the locking and unlocking done by Windows is completely in under the control of the Windows SMB protocols not by Sage 100. There is almost always a network / hardware issue involved. (If you see a delayed write failed error there is no doubt you have a network/hardware or hardware driver issue that is causing oplocks issues)

     A perfect full duplex, dedicated Gb (no auto negotiation) network with a strong file server that has minimal fragmentation and workstations with adequate resources, should be capable of supporting 30+ users but perfection is fickle and can be elusive once it’s lost.

     If a 100 Standard system begins to exhibit this behavior and there has been no recent increase in network load it is most likely a bad node has been added or there has been a failure in an existing node or cabling. Oplocking issues can be eliminated by shutting the feature off at the server or on each of the workstations or both. Instructions for how to do this can be found on the Sage knowledge base and on many articles on the Internet including Microsoft's site.

    Though most task will be unaffected, shutting off Oplocks on a 100 Standard system WILL reduce the performance of Crystal Reports and large ALE lookups. But Depending on how frequently the locking occurs, it could be necessary to allow users to function while troubleshooting the computers and network.

    Troubleshooting networks and computer hardware issues is not in the realm of Sage 100 customer support. These functions are best handled by your reseller or an IT professional.

    Sage 100 Advanced and Premium are built with a *client / server architecture. Since the processing and data access occurs on the server, there are no files being opened across the network, therefore oplocks issues cannot occur. This is not to say that Sage 100 Advanced is completely impervious to network disconnections, no product is, but oplocks issues are impossible, the general network load is reduced exponentially and the system is far more fault tolerant in general.

     *For Sage Advanced the CS ODBC service must be set up and configured for Crystal Reports to process on the server and is a differentiating feature in its own right. Test the performance of a Crystal report on a Sage 100 installation on the server and on a workstation. If it runs noticeably faster on the server it will run noticeably faster on the workstation using the Sage 100 Advanced CS ODBC driver. It may not run on the workstation with exactly the same performance as the server but typical performance improvement is between 3 and 5 times faster.

    There is no need to set up an ODBC server for Sage Premium.

  • 0 in reply to TheOtherGuy

    Dan,

    My intent was not to turn you off on Advanced with my last comment.

    As you add more and more users beyond 20, it is more and more likely that you will see slow downs due to increased network traffic.   Obviously results will vary depending on your hardware and network.  In any event, Advanced should hold up better and be more stable as you add more users.

    Just as a quick test which is not entirely scientific (two different servers, two different workstations same network and only myself currently the only one logged in) ,  I did a quick test on my network and I got similar times loading between standard and advanced (about 1-3 seconds - I was a little surprised, I thought it was longer than that).  This is significantly less than what you indicate you are getting (5-7 seconds?).  

    So I guess I will stick to my statement that the biggest improvement will be in processing especially if you are running reports on large databases.